Posts by Trevor Scott

26

Cross or Torture Stake?

by suprashy in

hi folks!.

do we have any non-biblical evidence that would show how criminals were executed during jesus' day?

i beleive the cross was used for our saviour.

Trevor Scott

Hi Bill,

Yes, I know what you mean. I currently attend a Baptist church, but I find I am much more challenged at this board.

If you don't mind my asking, are you an ex-Witness?

TS

26

Steve Bates Article on UN/WTS in Tablet newspaper

by hawkaw in

steve's article has just been released.. i have posted the particulars and links on the big un thread and linked below.. ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=13530&page=22&site=3.

the tablet is a clergy newspaper that is read by a lot of high up people in both main churches in britian.. congratulations steve.

his article is front and centre.. .

Trevor Scott

Sirona,

try Watchtower May 1, 1957, pg. 284-285

TS,

26

Cross or Torture Stake?

by suprashy in

hi folks!.

do we have any non-biblical evidence that would show how criminals were executed during jesus' day?

i beleive the cross was used for our saviour.

Trevor Scott

btw Bill, what part of Canada are you from? I'm in Vancouver.

TS,

26

Cross or Torture Stake?

by suprashy in

hi folks!.

do we have any non-biblical evidence that would show how criminals were executed during jesus' day?

i beleive the cross was used for our saviour.

Good points. My point was simply to say that faith in Christ is not based on the instrument of his death, cross or stake (speaking from a personal point of view of course). You're right, this is another discussion, but the issue was raised here, so I spoke to it.

Cheers.

TS,

26

Cross or Torture Stake?

by suprashy in

hi folks!.

do we have any non-biblical evidence that would show how criminals were executed during jesus' day?

i beleive the cross was used for our saviour.

Trevor Scott

Joelbear,

I agree with you. What is relative to faith is that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose on the third day.

Problem is, the WTS made this into an arguing point when they chose to condemn "Christendom" as pagan because of their teaching that Christ was killed on a cross. Don't Christians have a responsibility to refute such slanderous claims of paganism and apostasy? If the goal of a Christian is to bring persons to Christ, then the instrument of Christ's death is something that will have to be "argued" when dealing with a jw.

The biblical as well as secular and contemporary evidence is that Jesus was crucified in the traditional sense. If a jw can be made to realize this, then perhaps they will begin to think twice about their all-knowing governing body.

TS,

14

For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott in

suprashy,.

you might be thinking of rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...".

and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

Trevor Scott

Hi Suprashy,

"Reasoning" with a jw is a difficult task indeed. They are trained to talk, which is really to repeat what they are told, and not to listen or reason. Almost without realizing it, they have learned to do without thinking. Concepts that are contrary to WTS authorized doctrine are immediately dismissed as "false", without so much as a second thought.

Regarding the first and last, I always ask, how many firsts and lasts can there be? The nature of this title is exclusive - there can only be one first and one last. It's so simple, but the jw will not "get" it.

The other thing that escapes the jw, is that the target audience of the first century was ultra-familiar with the OT. They knew very well that Jehovah was the "first and the last", and here was Jesus, laying claim to the title, clearly claiming equality with God. Same goes for Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. The Jews to whom Jesus spoke were intimately familiar with Ex 3:14: "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'" They knew exactly what Jesus was claiming when he said "before Abraham was born, I AM". The next verse proves they knew what Jesus was claiming: "At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

In dealing with a jw, you need a very comprehensive argument, one with lots of supporting evidence. An argument consisting of one or two scriptures is more easily dismissed than one built upon 10 or 20 scriptures. A jw will be used to having people throw one or two scriptures at him/her; this happens fairly regularly during their door-to-door recruitment, and is easily "refuted" (in the jw mind) and easily forgotten. But a solid argument that takes in numerous scriptures cannot be so easily refuted or dismissed, and you just might get the jw to think! (And that, in my experience, is the key.)

In answer to your three questions:

1. I left the WTS/JW after performing an objective study of the organization. By objective, I mean examining both sides - same thing you are doing. I studied WTS publications, and I read material from former members ("Apocalypse Now", James Penton; "Crisis of Consciense", Ray Franz). The more I studied, the more lies, hypocrisy, false prophecy, and hiding of the truth I saw from the WTS. I verified all the claims of the ex-members. It became clear that God could not be using such a hypocritical, lying, false prophet as "His organization", "His channel of communication".

Secondly, I starting reading a real bible (New Revised Standard Version), and kept an extensive list of verses that were differently translated in the NWT. It became very clear the WTS was intentionally obscuring scriptures supporting the Deity of Christ. I started studying New Testament Greek, and could then see there was absolutely no scholarly support for the NWT variations - these were deliberate mistranslations.

Once my JW parents, siblings, and friends realized I had become an "apostate", they turned on me with slander and shunning. Of course, I tried to share what I had learned with them, but they reacted the same way your jw friend reacted to the UN issue. There was no going back for me, so I wrote a formal letter of dissasociation. That was about 15 months ago.

2. I am a Christian, and I believe in the true Deity of Jesus Christ. To me, "Trinity" is just a word, it doesn't have much meaning for me. In fact, I think it limits God, so I tend not to use it. I do believe the Holy Spirit is God. I believe Jesus was crucified in the traditional sense of the word. Right now I attend a Baptist church.

3. I think I answered this question already.

If you haven't read this article yet, let me recommend it again. It is a prime example and great expose of the typical deceitful tactics employed by the WTS. This is what you will be dealing with if you are witnessing to jws:

: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6507/de01015.htm

If you want to learn more about the WTS, check out these links:

: http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/doctrine.htm
: http://www.freeminds.org/history/history.htm
: http://www.freeminds.org/psych/psych.htm

Here's are a couple links to some writings of the early Church. Hopefully this helps in your research:

: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html
: http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/fathers.htm

TS,

(edited to fix a link)

26

Cross or Torture Stake?

by suprashy in

hi folks!.

do we have any non-biblical evidence that would show how criminals were executed during jesus' day?

i beleive the cross was used for our saviour.

Trevor Scott

Hi Suprashy,

I remember reading a good article on this subject a while ago. I think this is it: http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm

Logical,

right you are. But it's the WTS that has made a big deal out of this. I wish they would take your position and say who cares, cross or stake. Instead, they have turned it into yet another "proof" of their "righteousness" before God - more "evidence" that Christendom is pagan and the WTS is the truth.

This is just another example of Watchtower dishonesty - they know the evidence, but they never present it. Instead they bring out the old straw man, and then knock it down. I think this is something that can and should be used in talking to a jw.

TS,

14

For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott in

suprashy,.

you might be thinking of rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...".

and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

Trevor Scott

Suprashy,

Here are a few more scriptures showing Jehovah = Jesus. Quotes are from the NIV, but these all read similarly in the NWT:

Ps 130:8 = Mt 1:21
-----
"He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins"

"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
-----

Is 44:6 = Rev 1:17
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"This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God"

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last."
-----

Rom 14:10 = 2 Cor 5:10
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"You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
-----

Is 8:14 = 1 Pet 2:8
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"and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare."

"and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."
-----

Ps 136:3 = Rev 19:16
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"Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever."

"On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS"
-----

Is 40:8 = Mark 13:31
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"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"
-----

TS,

14

For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott in

suprashy,.

you might be thinking of rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...".

and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

Trevor Scott

Suprashy,

Regarding Col 1:15, "firstborn" issue, you need to show the JW that the term firstborn does not necessarily mean "first created". I direct jws to Ex 4:22, Jer 31:9, Job 18:13:

Ex 4:22
-----
Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son (NIV)
-----

Jer 31:9
-----
They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son. (NIV)
-----

Job 18:13
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It eats away parts of his skin; death's firstborn devours his limbs (NIV)
-----

These scriptures read similarly in the NWT, and show that "firstborn" often mean a position of pre-eminence. The firstborn was the heir, who would receive the inheritance. IT is in this sense that Jesus is "firstborn". Read Heb 1:2:

-----
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. (NIV)
-----

And Ps 89:27:
-----
I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (NIV)
-----

This is very clear - Jesus was appointed as firstborn. If he was "first created", he would not need an appointment as firstborn, he would be firstborn by default.

TS,

14

For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott in

suprashy,.

you might be thinking of rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...".

and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

Trevor Scott

Hi Suprashy.

You make many great points in your post, and you strike me as a very sensible person. Unfortunately, common sense is not a common trait among jws. JWs are discouraged from "independent thinking", which basically means having any thoughts that are contrary to what the WTS teaches. My sister, who is a JW, once told me that the "governing body" (JW leaders) does her thinking for her.

You are also correct when you say the WTS only portrays their side of the issue. They cannot accurately portray the other side, because they know their argument would crumble as a result. Instead, they create a "straw man" argument which they claim represents the other side, but is actually a false representation of the opposing view, which they can then easily knock down. They do this with the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the writings of the early church, the date for the fall of Jerusalem, etc, etc.

QUOTE:
"Another verse I find powerful, (and hopefully it is the same in the NWT)? is Isaiah 9:6"

Isaiah 9:6 does read similarly in the NWT:

-----
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
-----

The JW will tell you Jesus is "a mighty god", but not the Almighty God.

After reading Is 9:6, I turn to very next page, where Jehovah is called "the Mighty God" (Isaiah 10:21). Then I turn to Isaiah 28:29 where Jehovah is called "wonderful in counsel".

Another useful scripture is John 20:28, where Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and my God". This is important because the JWs make such a big deal about John 1:1 lacking the definite article. Because the definite article is not present, the JWs claim John 1:1 should be translated "a god". John 20:28 has the definite article, the literal Greek reads: "the Lord of me and the God of me". This shows that Jesus is "the God", not just "a god".

QUOTE: "I need to learn more about the JW. How they increase membership, and how the teaching grows within the new members. Its like they change overnight. Can anyone shed some light on this for me please?"

My feeling is that most of the growth of JWs in Western countries comes from children being born into the organization. Of course, they are also very aggressive in their door-to-door recruitment.

Doctrinal changes come down from the "governing body", and is said to be "new light" from Jehovah. In reality, the governing body takes a vote on proposed doctrinal changes, and a 2/3 majority wins. Usually the "new light" hoax is used when the WTS needs to abandon their old, embarrassing prophecies that are proving them to be false prophets (like the 1914 debacle), and to make doctrinal changes to appease government (like voting, and blood transfusions).

If you want to learn more about jws, I recommend Randy's comprehensive site: http://www.freeminds.org

Also, here are three links to articles that I think you will appreciate. The second one is a refutation of the Watchtower "Should you believe in the Trinity" brochure. The third link is an excellent article discussing a similarly deceptive article that the Watchtower Society wrote on the beliefs of the early church.

: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/thinknot.htm
: http://www.witnessinc.com/trinity.htm
: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6507/de01015.htm

TS,